Moje miasto ojczyste

[muckefuck]

Urodziłem się w Baltymorze, mieszkam w Szykagu, ale kiedykolwiek jestem pytany co jest miastem ojczystym, mówię "St Louis". Ojciec pochudzi z Baltymora, ale w czasie mojego urodzenia mieszkamy w Amesa a tylko urodziłem się tam ponieważ moi rodzice brali udział w ślubie wujka. (Mój starszy brat nie był tak szczęśliwy i urodził się w Nevadze, wsi w sródku Iowy.)

Matka pochudzi z St Louisa i w mojej młodości stałem niej się bliższy niż mojemu ojcowi. Pamiętam trochę Marylanda a był mój świat tam bardzo mały. Mój świat to był moja rodzina. Z St Louis poznawałem się na swoim. To jest pierwse miasto moje.

Comments

[strongaxe.livejournal.com]

Perhaps my genetic memory is failing me, but it's telling me that "wujka" should be spelled "wójka" (and unfortunately, Babelfish does not understand Polish. Do you know of an online translator?)

[muckefuck.livejournal.com]

Except ó alternates with o in Polish, so if the genitive/accusative form were *wójka, you'd expect nominative *wojek. As far as I know, that's not a Polish word.

Here's a link to the dictionary I've been using: http://www.dict.pl/dict?word=w%C3%B3j&words=&lang=EN. Unfortunately it can't handle inflected forms outside of fixed phrases.

[strongaxe.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the link. You're right, and my memory was faulty. I do know that wujek is a diminutive of wuj (which I have heard used on occasion, although this particular dictionary does not list it). Even though o alternates with ó during inflections, I think that there might be some words in which it does not do so (again, this is just from old memories, not from any authoritative sources I could point to).

There is another peculiarity of Polish that I always found it hard to get used to, but which one of my uncles was very particular about. wujek always refers to a maternal uncle, while stryjek (or stryj) always refers to a paternal uncle. Again, this dictionary does not mention this, although I think its database is somewhat imprecise (for example, it correctly associates Amerikanin with Uncle Sam, but also with uncle, which is totally wrong).

[muckefuck.livejournal.com]

A while ago I came across a very comprehensive listing of Polish kinship terminology: http://en.allexperts.com/q/Polish-Language-3388/2008/3/names-family-members.htm. Certain terms were marked as obsolete, among them stryj and all its derivatives (stryjenka, prastryjna, etc.). Of course, this could simply mean "obsolete for sophisticated urban dwellers". Certainly, if it's anything like other languages I know (e.g. German) in this respect, the dialectal variation is sure to be huge.

Oh, and so far the only exception I've come across to the o/ó rule is podróż. (E.g., na podróże instead of expected *na podroże). I'm not sure if this has anything to do with the fact that this is a feminine noun whereas all the other nouns I've learned with ó in the final syllable of the nominative singular are maculine.

[strongaxe.livejournal.com]

Well, it's quite possible that common usage has evolved recently. I was in Poland twice - once in 1964 and once again in 1970. A lot can change in 40 years :)

[muckefuck.livejournal.com]

Not to mention the fact that your soi-disant stryjek would have to be at least a generation older than that, czy to prawda?

[strongaxe.livejournal.com]

Yes; my father was born during WWI and fought in WWII. My stryjek was his older brother.

[joliecanard.livejournal.com]

The Macedonian list would look alot like the one on that site! Factor in the expected historical phonology and you only need know one set.
However, the terms are still very much in use in Macedonia. And there's definitely lots of dialectical variation (no surprise).

(oh, and please don't tell my professor that I can't answer for why you get na podróże. I'm afraid I have a leaky brain.)

[muckefuck.livejournal.com]

Nie martw się, mogę zachowywać tajemnicę!

[caprinus.livejournal.com]

podróż/na podróży are both secondary to droga/po drodze (road/on the road). So the alteration still works :) Sometimes the base vowel is an "e", not an "o", but the rule is pretty reliable.

There is a rote list of exceptions to the alterations which have to be memorized, most based on older, archaic pronunciations (often preserved in Ukrainian and Russian): see góra (mountain), chór (choir).

The other alteration rules, all with some exceptions, cover: ż from g, h, z, ź, s. (podróż/drogi, ważę/waga/waha, wożę/wozy/woźnica, bliżej/blisko); rz from r; h from ż, g, ź, z (błahy/błazen/błaźni). ("H" was formerly pronounced differently from "ch", my father's father still had the distinction. Again, comparisons with Russian and Ukrainian can be fruitful.) I am sure I am misremembering some, elementary school was a long time ago! :) But your books ought to have these.

[joliecanard.livejournal.com]

Macedonian has the same designation. Maternal uncle is вујко and paternal is стрико. Then it takes it further, and aunts by marriage correspond to the uncles they married: вујна and стрина, respectively. An aunt by blood is always тетка, regardless of side of family, and her husband is тетин. (don't even get me started on the words for the in-laws, there's a set for a man's in-laws and a woman's...)

Confusing to learn as a foreigner, but an elegant system - there's no need to explain who you're talking to, it's clear it's your aunt by marriage on your dad's side (стрина)!

[muckefuck.livejournal.com]

It's a system that makes a great deal of sense when the whole kit and caboodle are living together in the same small town--or even the same homestead! It makes less sense in a mobile urbanised society where (as is the case with me) my maternal and paternal relatives have always lived halfway across the country from each other and the nearest uncle on either side is more than 400 km distant from me.

[caprinus.livejournal.com]

*Wójek would be a diminutive man-at-arms, warrior ("wój"), cf. "wojna", war.

So your guess wasn't entirely bad, and a school-child would have to learn that "wuj" is unrelated to "wój" by rote.

I love the Polish kinship terms and they are not as obsolete as all that -- at least not in rural south-eastern Poland where both branches of my family are from. I still call my father's brothers "stryjek", although I do admit their wives are largely "ciocia".

[strongaxe.livejournal.com]

Yes, I experienced the same thing - uncles' wives all being called ciocia. And yes, my father's family comes from south-eastern Poland :)

[caprinus.livejournal.com]

I was going to say the "ciocia" thing was everywhere now, but my mother just told me my father's brother's daughter (i.e. my "siostra stryjeczna") still calls her "stryjenka"!

We're from south of Lublin -- my father's and my mother's families all live just a few miles apart.

[caprinus.livejournal.com]

Urodziłem się w Baltymorze, mieszkam w Szykagu, ale kiedykolwiek jestem pytany co jest miastem ojczystym, mówię "St Louis".

"które" for "co", otherwise cool. Though I'd leave the English city-names as is, maybe because I'm so used to them... or go whole-hog and translate "Świety Ludwik"? :)

Ojciec pochudzi z Baltymora, ale w czasie mojego urodzenia mieszkamy w Amesa a tylko urodziłem się tam ponieważ moi rodzice brali udział w ślubie wujka.

"Ojciec pochodzi z Baltymora, ale w czasie moich urodzin mieszkaliśmy w Amesie, a urodziłem się tam tylko ponieważ moi rodzice brali udział w ślubie wujka."

(Mój starszy brat nie był tak szczęśliwy i urodził się w Nevadze, wsi w sródku Iowy.)

"(Mój starszy brat nie był tak szczęśliwy i urodził się w Nevadzie, wsi w sródku Iowy.)"

Matka pochudzi z St Louisa i w mojej młodości stałem niej się bliższy niż mojemu ojcowi.

Unless I am crazy, I think there's a subtle distinction going on here: "stałem się bliższy jej niż mojemu ojcu" (not "ojcowi", because he's animate) is grammatical, but means something different than "stałem się bliższy jej niż mojego ojca". "Jestem bliższy ojcu/matce" = "my father/mother bonded with me more"/"my father/mother feels closer to me". "Jestem bliższy ojca/matki" = "I bonded more with my father/mother"/"I feel closer to my father/mother".

So I think what you're trying to say here should be: "Matka pochodzi z St Louis [I really can't stomach declining this :)] i w mojej młodości stałem się bliższy jej niż mojego ojca."

Pamiętam trochę Marylanda a był mój świat tam bardzo mały. Mój świat to był moja rodzina. Z St Louis poznawałem się na swoim. To jest pierwse miasto moje.

Mostly just word order here: "Pamiętam trochę Marylanda ale mój świat tam był bardzo mały. Mój świat to była moja rodzina. Z St Louis poznawałem się na swoim. To jest moje pierwsze miasto." -- note that the verb in "Mój świat to była moja rodzina" agrees with the second element. Better might be "Moim światem była moja rodzina".