Veterus Ordo

[muckefuck]

I really wish more media outlets would learn to distinguish "Latin mass" from "Tridentine mass". The novelty of Benny 16's Summorum Pontificum is not that it allows the mass to be said in Latin; this has been possible all along. It's that it allows the Latin mass that our grandparents grew up with to be said without special permission. You see, Vatican II didn't just change the language of the mass, it changed the whole text of the liturgy: What prayers were included, the congregation's responses, and on and on. Older Catholics could always request the performance of Novus Ordo Latin masses, but they weren't the same as the masses they grew up with. Furthermore, even before these changes were made, the Tridentine mass was being performed in languages other than English. Nevertheless, a priest still needed special permission to perform a Tridentine mass regardless whether it was in English, Latin, Kikongo, or whatever.

Incidentally, it's up to the bishop of each diocese to decide whether to grant permission for performance of the Tridentine mass, so actual practice varies a lot in the USA and worldwide. In Chicago, Tridentine masses have been available for almost 20 years now at the parish of St. John Cantius in Ukrainian Village, so the effect of the Pope's letter will probably be minor. Perhaps the media coverage will prompt a few more nostalgic parishioners to seek out this parish, but I suspect anyone with more than a passing interest knew about it already.

I overheard some kids on the el over the weekend discussing the change and calling it "a step backward". "I think what people want is for them to be more progressive." I wonder about that. If you're really interested in progressive Christianity, why would you turn to the church whose name is byword for backwardness and ossification? I'm curious what a brand analyst would say if hired to advise the RCC. I suspect he'd see more value in playing up the ties to tradition; after all, that's what makes this denomination unique in a sea of johnny-come-lately sects and congregations.

Comments

[bunj.livejournal.com]

I too have been disappointed by the coverage of this. I mean, it's not that difficult a concept, but so many media outlets miss the distinction between Latin mass and Tridentine mass (with a few so confused as to call it the Latin Rite). Also, many have used this story as an excuse to pontificate on how the Catholic Church is growing more conservative and out-of-touch, yadda yadda yadda.

I think Benny 16 is quite aware of the "Catholic brand" which is why he's taking the steps he's taking. As mollpeartree and others have said, "Mass isn't supposed to be fun, it's supposed to be important." This is one of his steps to make mass important again, and to play to Catholicism's strengths. If the Church was as progressive as those kids on the El would like, would they attend mass?

[mollpeartree.livejournal.com]

I think that's a quote from luckymarty; though I've made similar comments in my lj about the apparent attempt to make church more entertaining in the Methodist congregation I grew up in and visit from time to time because my mother still goes there.

[luckymarty.livejournal.com]

I have definitely said that, yes. "Fun" is a playing field on which the mass is going to be easily out-competed in contemporary society.

Whether or not there are changes in Chicago really depends on whether how many (any?) parishes have groups that would like a local Tridentine service (Ukrainian Village not exactly counting as "local" for all of Chicagoland).

Also, I'm surprised to hear that the change is being discussed by kids on the El.

[muckefuck.livejournal.com]

What reminded me of it was a blurb in the USAToday someone left on my lunch table. I assume some rag like RedEye had a paragraph on it. Or maybe they saw something on the nightly news. According to monshu, it made CNN.

[fengshui.livejournal.com]

Also, in the protestant cauldron, the denominations that are thriving are the more strict conservative ones. Episcopalianism is hurting, largely because of its progressive nature.

[muckefuck.livejournal.com]

I've been reading sort of contradictory reports about this. On the one hand, studies mollpeartree have linked to show that, in general, the more successful denominations are those that make greater demands of their congregants. On the other, a lot of the reports on the fastest-growing congregations focus on the "mega-church" phenomenon, which allows--for instance--people to watch services on a tv screen from the comfort of a coffee bar. Is it some peculiar combination of friendly services but high standards for extra-ecclesiastical behaviour that produces the best results?

[fengshui.livejournal.com]

I think that that's a good way of putting it, yeah. Mega-churches are friendly, and provide a lot of services and comfort, but they simultaneously have pretty high standards, so you feel like you're part of something important. Also, I think having day-care, and weekly bible-study, and church youth group, and all of those activities can center one's life around church, so that it's easier to go to Sunday Service and do your tithing because you're getting so much more out of church than just one the morning of service a week.

I'm sure schlafmanko knows tons more about this, of course. Hopefully she'll comment here when she sees this. :)

[tyrannio.livejournal.com]

Every time I see "Tridentine Mass", I think at first it's some sort of trishul-featuring Shaivite ceremony.

[muckefuck.livejournal.com]

For me it conjures up images of an undersea king with exposed nipples leading the service.

[foodpoisoningsf.livejournal.com]

1. Progressive does not mean fun. It means including women and gays, and making the liturgy not only accessible but comprehensible. Do you lead a Catholic life on a daily basis, or is a weekly fantasia of your best clothes, Latin and incense? Overhearing kids on the El is not surprising, but it's interesting. They probably actually know the liturgy without having to read stained-glass windows.

2. The mega-churches are not Catholic. They are (generally) Pencostal/Evangelical offshoots of 19th C American Protestantism rooted in the Old Testament with very different ideas about salvation, transubstantiation and the divinity of Mary. For all their supposed rigor, it's still the lite beer of Christianity, but it's possible that Benny16 is looking for the same appeal of Olde Tyme Religion with the Tridentine Mass.

3. I thought Benny16's freeing of the Tridentine Mass interesting in the sense that it's a recognition of the varied personalities within his church- that's it's not a monolithic enterprise- but one with varying traditions. Makes for a bigger tent.

4. Does the TM still condemn the Jews as Christ Killers?

[luckymarty.livejournal.com]

4. Did it ever? I think it is safe to assume that it doesn’t now, since the ADL's complaint about the change only cited an insulting reference to the Jews in the Good Friday mass (only; it used to contain a prayer "Oremus et pro perfidis Judaeis").
This phrase has, I am sure they will be pleased to learn, been removed in the Missal of 1962, the version of the Tridentine Mass which is being allowed broader use. (Also, the motu proprio doesn't authorize the 1962 Missal for use during the Good Friday/Easter Triduum anyway.)

3. I don't think that was his primary intent, but it was a secondary one, yes.

2. Mollpeartree's interest in the mega-church phenomenon stems from its new influence in the Protestant church of her childhood. I don't think that anyone was confusing it with a movement within Catholicism. While I don't completely understand the appeal of the mega-churches, I doubt that they are associated with "old tyme religion" by anyone.

1. In my experience, mainstream liturgy in the U.S., which is influenced by progressives more than any other single group, has a very strong desire to make the mass fun. This is especially evident when trying to attract/engage young people, when it is also especially futile. True progressives, judging from the ones I knew in Minnesota, have a rather different agenda, which they would never think to describe as "fun."

The real problem with the liturgical progressives isn't so much their specific agenda (although some elements of that are problematic) as the fact that their devotion to it leads them to approach the liturgy wrongly, as a field for arbitrary changes and experimentation to try to get the effects they want. This is fundamentally discordant with the general Catholic respect for tradition and, specifically, with the basic understanding that the Eucharist is something given to us, not something that belongs to us which we can remake at will.

I suppose it's fairly clear that I think setting apart the liturgy from ordinary time is in no way opposed to "leading a Catholic life on a daily basis." It has not been my experience that progressive liturgies are notably more helpful towards the latter end in any case.

[foodpoisoningsf.livejournal.com]

Thanks. Jews are rejoicing as we speak. As for the rest, it's all Cain and Abel to me. Nice of Benny16 to announce yesterday that he's got the only one true Church.

[muckefuck.livejournal.com]

Once again, seems like sound brand management to me.