Thinko de Mayo

[muckefuck]

Part of me feels like I should be commenting here about the most recent natonal immigraton debate (if it can really be called that), since I've been discussing the subject so heatedly elsewhere. Monday, I arrived for class a bit late and found Liu laoshi worked up into a lather. Su xiaojie explained over dinner that she'd merely mentioned the march downtown that day and that was enough to get her going. I can understand how, as a naturalised citizen who works at an immigrant aid agency, she has strong personal feelings about the situation. (Queue-jumping and dual citizenship were her particular bêtes-noires.) Still, I couldn't resist trying to engage her. I strove to be as calm and non-confrontational as possible while still refusing to concede any point I don't agree with.

But I can't see getting into the same kind of kerfluffle here, since I think we're all mostly on the same page regarding this subject: Full amnesty is unfair, but criminalisation is not a solution. The system is broken and in dire need of reform, but meaningful improvements are probably politically impossible right now. The immigrants are net contributors to the improvement of US society--stop me when I hit one of your triggers, okay?

It's unproductive, but I can't help but wonder what might've been achieved on this front if not for 9/11. 2000 looked so promising, with a pro-American president of the UMS and a pro-Mexican president of the USA, both pro-trade and pro-business to boot. It's not often you have a Republican leader making sane noises about immigration reform, so I honestly expected a guest worker programme by the end of Bush's first term.

Then came the terrorist attack and the drastic re-alignment of priorities that followed. Not only did the president not have time for Mexico, but "national security" became agenda item #1. (Scare quotes because it seems to be the appearance of improved security rather than the real thing that most Americans are clamouring for.) We went from embracing globalisation to "Secure the borders and repell all comers!" and Tom Tancredo went from extremist wing-nut to the centre of the party.

It's so depressing, it just makes me want to mock the stupid. You can too: Please share the dumbest things you've heard from Americans about Cinco de Mayo. (I'm taking "Mexican Independence Day" off the table from the get-go, since that notion is so widespread, it's not even funny.) I'll get us started:

Woman in my condo: "We know all about Cinco de Mayo! Blabbitty blabbitty blab. Oh, you're from Venezuela!"

Bonus point: She pronounced it "Chinco", as if it were Mozarabic or something.

Comments

[cpratt.livejournal.com]

I've got the perfect T-shirt for that woman in your condo. Oh, and having been born on Mexican Independence Day myself, yeah, it's amusing when virtually no one can name that date - they just refer to Corona marketing materials instead.

[muckefuck.livejournal.com]

You wear your age well, my nigh-bicentenarian friend!

[cpratt.livejournal.com]

It's amazing what Katie's placenta has done for my complexion!

[muckefuck.livejournal.com]

Not to mention bathing (or should I say "bathorying"?) regularly in the blood of young virgins.

[stephe.livejournal.com]

You can too: Please share the dumbest things you've heard from Americans about Cinco de Mayo.

From Overheard in New York:

Young guy #1: So are you doing anything for Cinco de Mayo?
Young guy #2: Uh, I guess I'll just go out like regular.
Young guy #1: Yeah, that's cool.
Young guy #2: Actually, one of my friends knows a ton of Puerto Rican people, so that'll be good.
Young guy #1: Um...yeah...

[lhn.livejournal.com]

Bonus point: She pronounced it "Chinco", as if it were Mozarabic or something.

Oddly, I just had a bout of mental confusion over that a couple days ago. (Being unsure for a few minutes about the beginning consonant.) In my case, I think it was a matter of crosswiring the Italian I took (almost twenty years ago) with Spanish. Yeah, in Italian it would be cinque, but I'm just talking pronunciation rules, especially since my knowledge of Spanish pronunciation is a matter of vague osmosis rather than anything formal. (Fortunately I wasn't talking to anyone at the time.)

[muckefuck.livejournal.com]

The title of this post is a reference to the fact that I, with my Castilian pronunciation, tend to say "Thinco de Mayo" if I'm not careful. (I know this isn't technically a mistake, but it just sounds odd--kinda like saying "Fohf o' July" all Cockney-style.)

Hey!

[(Anonymous)]

Thinco is a perfectly fine pronunciation! Besides, it wasn't us they were trying to kick out, at least this time.

-e

Re: Hey!

[bunj.livejournal.com]

Nope, thanks to Napoleon II and Corona, I get a free burrito today. Life is good.

Re: Hey!

[princeofcairo.livejournal.com]

Napoleon III, surely, unless the infant King of Rome bought you a burrito from beyond the grave.

Re: Hey!

[bunj.livejournal.com]

Well, it was 45 minutes late and not what I ordered. If the delivery guy was a zombie, that would explain a lot.

Damn Franco-Italian zombies.

[gopower.livejournal.com]

It's not often you have a Republican leader making sane noises about immigration reform

The last major immigration reform came under Reagan. And George H.W. negotiated Nafta which is kinda, sorta immigration-related. So all it takes is getting a Republican elected to the presidency...

And if Tancredo is getting more ink these days, that reflects the narrow focus of the media, not the GOP. The restrictionist segment of the party (or law-enforcing, if you prefer) is as strong now as it's been for quite a while -- Remember Pete Wilson, of all people, in 1994. The rest of the country is now beginning to take seriously the question Republicans have been debating for generations.

[snowy-owlet.livejournal.com]

Several weeks ago I heard a woman with nearly perfect English rant about how she came to this country legally, got her citizenship, and learned English, so everyone who doesn't is a lazy bastard dragging the country down. There was also a long tangent about the costs of printing up government forms in Spanish.

That's pretty much everything I've heard on the subject. In my little corner of Houston, people are much more up in arms about the Wicked Katrina Evacuees Who Are Waiting To Rob Our Homes.

[innerdoggie.livejournal.com]

I was wondering whether Mexico has three independence days?

1. Independence from Spain
2. Getting rid of Maximillian
3. Revolution

[muckefuck.livejournal.com]

Only the first is actually referred to as "El Día de la Independencia". (Which is odd when you think of it, since the event it commemorates--the Grito de Dolores--predates Mexico's actual independence from Spain by more than a decade.) In addition to the third, "el Día de la Revolución", there's also "el Día de la Constitución" (Feb. 5th), which somewhat commemorates the conclusion of that Revolution.

Cinco de Mayo is another example of that interesting phenomenon, the "national holiday" which is more popular abroad than at home. For those born in Mexico, Sept. 16th is the most important fiesta patria, but it's too narrowly political to appeal to second- and third-generation Chicanos. They need a day where they can celebrate Mexican cultural roots without celebrating a national identity they don't really participate in, and Cinco de Mayo fits the bill.

For most other American ethnic communities, this holiday is a patron saint's day (e.g. St. Patrick's, St. David's) or the birthday of a prominent early ethnic patriot (e.g. Pulaski Day, von Steuben Day). It's interesting to ponder the reasons why Chicanos have gravitated to the secular Cinco de Mayo rather than the Catholic Feast of Our Lady of Guadelupe.

[lhn.livejournal.com]

Possibly just the fact that it's so close to Christmas (12/12)? (In places like Chicago, that might be reinforced by the fact that it's not exactly the ideal time of year for a parade or outdoor festival. But I'd presume that the epicenter of Mexican-American customs would be the Southwest, where that would be less of an issue.)

[qwrrty.livejournal.com]

So, like I said a few days ago, I don't understand why we criminalize immigration at all, and so I don't think I understand why full amnesty would be unfair. It would certainly be unfair in the sense that it would penalize people who are still waiting to be allowed to jump through INS's hoops, but it seems to me as though those hoops shouldn't exist in the first place. Is there an additional way in which full amnesty isn't appropriate that I'm missing?

(This is, fwiw, not a troll -- I really, honestly, seriously do not understand the logic behind restricting immigration, and would really like to know the arguments in favor.)

[muckefuck.livejournal.com]

You yourself have just explained why it would be unfair. Whether it's also unjust is another question entirely.

[lhn.livejournal.com]

I'm probably the wrong person to respond, since I'm in favor of fairly open immigration. But here are some reasons:

1) Fear of economic competition. Basically, the same reasons people are concerned about outsourcing, free trade, etc., with many of the same counter- and counter-counterarguments. (Which makes it a little odd that opposition to outsourcing and open immigration center on opposite ends of the spectrum.)

2) Fear of cultural/linguistic conflicts. I think this is a big part of the issue today. Being unable to communicate with someone can be scary, and many people resent it when they feel surrounded by people who can't or won't speak their language. (The extent to which that's true, and the extent to which it's a problem may be debatable, but the perception is there.) The history of linguistic nationalism over the last couple centuries (combined with Aztlan rhetoric from some extremists) raises the spectre of intercommunal violence, and since immigrant communities are often poor there's generally plenty of violence, gang activity, etc. to point to. Population movements do change or eliminate existing communities, and people who have interests in them will tend to resist that, whether it takes the form of immigration or gentrification or racial integration or housing price inflation.

3) The idea that citizenship entails ties of loyalty and obligation. (Obviously, one could make the counterargument that plenty of birthright citizens feel no such ties, but a) plenty of communities-- many religions, most obviously-- set higher effective standards for members-by-adoption than for members-by-birth, and there's a fair amount of empirical evidence that Americans do on the whole have those sorts of ties.)

4) Security concerns: the more people able to cross the border and the less checking they undergo regarding background and loyalties, the larger a sea of people potential enemies can hide among. Immigration isn't the only route for entering (overstaying a student or tourist visa is another obvious option, and as long as goods are coming into the country it's going to be hard to filter out determined people-- though many people for whom this is a big issue aren't necessarily enthusiastic about free trade either). But plugging up those holes won't necessarily help if there's a pipeline through which millions can flow.

Probably not exhaustive, and I'm not necessarily interested in defending any of them in detail. I also think that the pro- side may have gotten too complacent, eschewing making the arguments in favor of immigration for the easier task of psychologizing or mocking the antis. The only vocal constituency I see making arguments for are business interests, who don't really have a stake in making them citizens (since one of the big advantages of immigrant labor is that much of it evades tax and regulation on the low end, and much of it is semi-indentured via H1-B visas on the high end). The other current seems to be to treat it as a civil rights issue, but concentrating on the demonstrations to the exclusion of other persuasive tactics. I'm not sure that's going to work, and it may well provoke a backlash.

As for me, I don't know what the solution is, and mostly find that I don't like any of the current proposals. I don't want to expel millions who just want to work (let alone imprison them). I don't want to make citizens of people who aren't willing to commit to the US (and I probably would go back to our old policy of not recognizing dual citizenship, were I in charge-- anyone can choose to be an American, IMHO, but one should have to choose). I don't want a guest-worker program, which institutionalizes a permanent population defined by their lack of interest in being American. And I'd take any of the above rather than eliminating birthright citizenship. (The idea of deliberately creating a population born in the United States, many of whom may never have lived anywhere else, and making them noncitizens and subject to deportation, strikes me as sowing the wind.) I don't want people subject to abuse or extortion on pain of being outed to La Migra. And I frankly don't know if there's a coherent policy to be extracted from all that, but I haven't seen a coherent policy that I like better.