A tentative entry about language

[muckefuck]

Right now, there is on my desk a book entitled A tentative grammar of the Efe or Mbuti language. I love the notion of a linguist so uncertain that he can't even decide what to call the language he's describing. It led me to expect sentences like, "Well, you could use the instrumental case here, but, uhm, I'm not sure I would; I mean, it wouldn't be wrong, but would it be the best way to express what you have in mind?" Of course, nothing really distinguishes the style from thousands of other descriptive grammars.

I searched the title and found that we also have a "tentative grammar" of something called Kipsigis-Nandi (mind you, that could change) and Mycenaean Greek. It makes me want to start my own popular series to compete with Routledge's "Colloquial" and the English Universities' "Teach Yourself". After all, I hate giving definite answers when people ask, "How do you say that in X?" I mean, seriously, it depends, doesn't it? How many ways are there in Engish to imply that someone's statement is false? Or even state it outright?

Oh, though I do feel a responsibility to post a bit more about my attempts to learn Mandarin Chinese, if only in order to reassure teapot_farm that this is a not a hopelessly quixotic task. I've learned how to say quite a number of things over the past two months. Statements, questions, requests--simple, but basically unambiguous. Yes, it may be highly "idiomatic" to say "Precious surname, huh?" when you want to know someone's name, but it's not confusing after you've done it a few times. We're also lucky to have a teacher who's very responsive to our curiosity about variations and distinctions.

Comments

[niemandsrose.livejournal.com]

I want you to learn about Mandarin as teenagers speak it-- not the slang, 'cause you'll never keep up, but the Mandarin equivalent of every other word being "like".

'Cause that would be funny.

[muckefuck.livejournal.com]

This is precisely the kind of speech I am least likely to learn from my present teacher. However, I'm hoping to take away enough comprehension from this course that I'll be able to take a stab at deciphering the conversations I overhear on campus.

[niemandsrose.livejournal.com]

Yeah, but it would be useful if you knew that that one word you hear so much is the conversational equivalent of "like", not, for example, the word "titrate".

[muckefuck.livejournal.com]

I have my sources...

[rollick.livejournal.com]

I can't believe that a usage-anal wordhound like you is telling me what a book is "entitled." For shame. I throw heavy German sausages at you, that being all the cuisine has to offer me.

[mollpeartree.livejournal.com]

Huh? The OED online says:

1. trans. To furnish (a literary work, a chapter, etc.) with a heading or superscription; in early use gen. (cf. TITLE n.). Subsequently only in narrower sense: To give to (a book, etc.) a designation by which it is to be cited, or which indicates the nature of its contents. Chiefly with complementary obj.; also const. by, with.

Are you objecting to the passive voice?

[rollick.livejournal.com]

I was heavily trained, both in English classes and at the various publications I've worked for, to never use "entitled" to mean "titled." Yes, it's the passive voice, but it's also the multiple meanings of "entitled," which confuse the issue.

[aadroma.livejournal.com]

I mean, seriously, it depends, doesn't it? How many ways are there in Engish to imply that someone's statement is false? Or even state it outright?

Right, or in any other language. Some of the things I've seen in language tutoring has, sadly, been a reinforcement that there is only one way to say something, which ... erm, is false. :: chuckles as he draws a conversation circle ::

[muckefuck.livejournal.com]

I've been trying to avoid contributing to this by saying things like "The Spanish word for X is..." as if there were one and only one lexical item in the language corresponding exactly to every usage of a particular word in English. This is the preconception my father had before he tried to learn a language: It's just a matter of learning new words for things. Carajo, how boring that would be!

[aadroma.livejournal.com]

It's even more intresting when the language lacks ANY word for the word you're looking for. You should try looking up the word "kosher" in Spanish, Japanese, or Korean sometime. :: chuckle ::

[muckefuck.livejournal.com]

Well, if English had had a word for that, we wouldn't've borrowed it, would we?

Actually, diccionarios.com lists cosher. I wonder what the earlier word was. (After all, they had Jews; there must've been some term in use.)

[aadroma.livejournal.com]

It can be imported, yes, but barely anyone ein those languages will understand what you're getting at. In English, the term has been assimilated and, even if you don't know it's specific meaning or what exactly makes food kosher, you still have its connotative uses as well, so that most people won't be clueless as to what it means.

Try using the term "cosher" to any average Mexican or Spaniard, for example and chances are you'll get a blank stare unless they're Jewish or knowledgable of Jewish lifestyles (which'd be rare -- average Latin beliefs on Jews are ... unique, to say the least, at least from what I've experienced).

Instead, even if you use the term "kosher"/"cosher", you'll have to use a much weightier explanation like, "comida conforme a la lay (tradición) judaica", as the term's not common in modern Spanish usage.

For obvious reasons this gets more complex when you get into Asian languages ...

[teapot-farm.livejournal.com]

I am still quailing, but faintly reassured. Only faintly, mind.