Catholic education is a bad mistake

[muckefuck]

This morning on the radio, I heard what might just be the most specious defence against clerical child molestation judgements to date. A lawyer representing the Roman Catholic Church pointed out that if the courts continue to rule again the various California dioceses in the dozens of outstanding cases, then the Church will do forced to close many parishes and suspend charitable services in others.

Well, boo fucking hoo.

Don't get me wrong, I think it sucks that simple parishoners are seeing their donations go into multi-million dollar abuse awards rather than re-roofing the rectory or keeping the food bank operating. But that's hardly an argument against compensation of victims. I mean, can you imagine applying this to other liability cases, like say the recent Firestone scandal? "Your honour, if you award this amount of damages, my client will have to close dozens of factories." Well, um, that's kind of the point, this being a punitive measure and all. Yes, it sucks that thousands of workers who can't be held responsible for making defective tires (including those in firms that supply and service the tire factories) will be thrown out of work. But that's hardly a reason not to pay money to the families of people who died because they bought those tires.

Somebody (and I've got a little list of names right here, most of 'em with "Bp." in front of 'em) should've used their damn head and seen this coming. "Hey, maybe if we let priests serially molest youngsters, sooner or later they'll stop taking hush money and just turn around and sue our asses off." And I don't completely excuse the laity either. Plenty of them knew this was going on and did little or nothing to publicise it or challenge the hierarchy to change its ways. Heck, I was in this category when I was a teenage Catholic.

I don't pretend it would've been easy. I was stymied by a lack of evidence and nerve. monshu agrees that Keating hit the nail on the head when he called the American bishops "la Cosa Nostra" (though he suggested calling it la Cosa Nostra clericale for clarity). The only way there's ever going to be accountability among the Catholic clergy is if parishoners get really, really furious--like they'll be when their parishes are closed while the architects of the coverup go scot free. The drop in donations is starting to hurt, but it's not enough. No, what should terrify the priestly establishment is what I heard from a Catholic father: That he's not sure whether he wants to raise his children in the Church. If that doesn't prompt reform, then there's basically no hope for the RCC. (Did I say "Boo fucking hoo" already?)

So, one way or another--by forcing the RCC to reform or by forcing its members into better-run organisations--these huge judgements will improve things. Not that I'm wild in my support for the kind of compensation that's being paid. One lawyer representing the molestation victims said, "What are the costs of someone whose childhood has been stolen? How do you even put a number on that?" You can't--and yet we do all the time. We regularly put a price on people's lives. We've done that for the victims of 9/11 and most of them weren't valued at nearly the sums of the "stolen childhoods" of a few select plaintiffs. (Again, our rampant fetishising of childhood yields some wildly disproportionate outcomes.)

Comments

[mollpeartree.livejournal.com]

What I don't understand is, why aren't these people in jail? Doesn't covering up a felony make one an accessory to it?

[muckefuck.livejournal.com]

MY QUESTION EXACTLY!

With any luck, Bishop O'Brien (Diocese of Phoenix) will be behind bars soon. Perversely, this may well be on account of his recent hit-and-run accident rather than his completely unscrupulous administrative methods.

But what about Cardinal Law and Archibishop Mahoney, among others? I don't want to see more apologise and resignations, I want to see some serious sentencing!

clergy misconduct

[darkphuque.livejournal.com]

There are no, and I emphasize "no" religious organizations without marks against them. Within all the yelling about the Boys and the Altar Boys, no one has discussed the number of misconducts of clergy w/women. This transcends all denominations and ironically, it has occurred among Jews and Muslims.

Because its adult to adult it seems to get pushed out of notice. The Bishops cover it all up, because it cuts at the base of "their" prosperity.

I don't believe that the Bishops ever thought that all this would really come out...now that it is, they don't know where to hide.

Sadly the history of boy abuse my catholic clergy is long...think about the orpahage in Newfoundland...

Re: clergy misconduct

[muckefuck.livejournal.com]

Where do you think the present closed confessionals came from? They were a counterreformation response to clerical sexual abuse of parishoners (particularly young women, but also young men).

Monshu points out that the secret funds from which hush money was paid to molestation victims (every diocese had them) were mostly established to quietly settle patrimony cases. But, you know, we have our very own local archibishop going on record saying that a priest shtupping an 18-year-old woman can't be compared to one fondling a 12-year-old boy. 'Cause, y'know, childhood is sacred and boys are more important than girls.

Re: clergy misconduct

[darkphuque.livejournal.com]

You wrote: <

[Error: Irreparable invalid markup ('<but,>') in entry. Owner must fix manually. Raw contents below.]

You wrote: <<But, you know, we have our very own local archibishop going on record saying that a priest shtupping an 18-year-old woman can't be compared to one fondling a 12-year-old boy. 'Cause, y'know, childhood is sacred and boys are more important than girls.>>

Sad...both cause irreparable pain. The damage is different, yes, but only by degrees.

Re: clergy misconduct

[snowy-owlet.livejournal.com]

I'm curious about the numbers, though: given that Orthodox clergy are allowed to marry (is that true for Greek Orthodox? I may be speaking too much from Russian history here), I would imagine that instances of improper sexual conduct in whatever form are lower than in the Catholic church.

That being said, my parents' Episcopal church saw one priest who embezzled funds merely transferred to a fancier church in another state, whereas the following priest (a woman), who had an affair with a married, female parishioner, was defrocked, even though she voluntarily came forward and apologized publicly, while the embezzeler did not.

I think the practice of not allowing clergy to be human and make human mistakes is asking for trouble. It's one thing to be like my grandfather: his bishops did not demand his resignation for his adultery. They asked that he write a letter of apology to them and apologize in the pulpit. He refused and lost his job. My parents' priest did not have to be asked: she apologized because she felt it was her duty as a priest and a Christian. I really think she deserved more compassion than she got.

Re: clergy misconduct

[darkphuque.livejournal.com]

You wrote: <

[Error: Irreparable invalid markup ('<given [...] church.>') in entry. Owner must fix manually. Raw contents below.]

You wrote: <<given that Orthodox clergy are allowed to marry (is that true for Greek Orthodox? I may be speaking too much from Russian history here), I would imagine that instances of improper sexual conduct in whatever form are lower than in the Catholic church.>>
Its not necessarily true. There are many married Orthodox Clergy who are gay. I knew many in seminary who got married. Usually to Old Country women. The Priest can be VERY restricted to the number of days he can participate in things sexual.

Every Tues. Eve thru Wed. Eve, and every Thurs. eve thru Fri. eve are periods of abstinence.
Every Sat. after sunset is a time of Abstinence, Sunday until sunset is a period of abstinence.

All of the Nativity Fast (40 Days) is an abstinence period. All of the Great Fast (Lent) is abstinence Period. The Dormition Fast is a period of abstinence. ( 5 days) The Apostles Fast is a period of abstinence (2 weeks) There are several other shorter fasts that require abstinence as well. Then of course there is female menses, when they cannot even sleep in the same bed.

I am constantly surprised that so many Gay clergy have children at all. OTOH, **I** have 2 kids, gotten during High School....so, who knows. If men were allowed to be more open, it would be a lot more healthy and safe. 10% of all the deaths among Orthodox Clergy over the past 20 years is do to AIDS....FWIW

Re: clergy misconduct

[snowy-owlet.livejournal.com]

Yowza! A 10% death rate from AIDS for clergy? That's pretty astounding.

And quite frankly, all that abstinence would make me grumpy, but I imagine that if you buy into the doctrine, it can be a real spiritual test.

Shrieking witch that I am, I've been thinking lately about going back and reading the bible again. My memory has gotten hazy on some of the bits that I'd like to remember, like Song of Songs and Proverbs. And in theological discussions, I like to be able to say things like, "But *Jesus* didn't say that, Paul did: personally, I'd think Jesus's word was more important ...," and I've forgotten alot of that stuff too.

:-) I suppose that was apropos of nothing.

Re: clergy misconduct

[snowy-owlet.livejournal.com]

And yes: I agree with what you said about men being allowed to be more open. Sometimes I think it's easier for women, but then sometimes I think it's simply different. Regardless, I wish we were all more accepting as a culture.

[spookyfruit.livejournal.com]

One suspects if the 'values' being attributed to 9/11 victims were being paid by the perpetrators rather than charity, they'd be higher. This one does, anyway.

-sf-

See, I was raised Southern Baptist.

[thefirethorn.livejournal.com]

Somebody (and I've got a little list of names right here, most of 'em with "Bp." in front of 'em) should've used their damn head and seen this coming.

I was taught that

(1) When you sin, and ask forgiveness, God will forgive you. But you still must suffer the consequences of your decision.

(2) When you sin, you hurt not only yourself, but other innocent people, many of whom you've never thought of. You won't even know WHO those people are until it happens.

All of this, to me, translates:

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, WHO'S fault is this? Hmmmm......

All Christians sin and forgive

[muckefuck.livejournal.com]

One of the central conflicts of this ongoing tragedy is the contradiction between the Christian notion of forgiveness and redemption and the empirical evidence for recidivism among paederasts. The latter shows that, as guilty and contrite as many people feel about their abusive behaviour, they're not very good at ending it voluntarily. The only safe long-term solution is to prevent contact between paederasts and children. Thirty years ago, bishops and other administrators could be forgiven for not recognising this solution; there's far less excuse for continuing to ignore it through the 80's and 90's (and absolutely no justification for sending problem priests to other jurisdictions without informing future supervisors of their issues).

Sure, ultimate fault for the abuse lies with the abuser. But responsibility for protecting the flock lies with the entire clergy--and an argument can be made (a la Hannah Arendt) that those in charge have a greater responsibility than those on the lower rungs. However, far too many Catholic clergy saw their primary responsibility as (1) shielding their own and (2) protecting the Church from scandal. The original meaning of "scandal", according to the OED, is "discredit to religion occasioned by the conduct of a religious person". However, in moral theology, the definition is "something that provides occasion and incitement to the sin of another". Clearly, it's this second definition that the bishops should've been concerned with, rather than the first.

Re: All Christians sin and forgive

[thefirethorn.livejournal.com]

Yup. What you said.

Let's also not forget that Jesus Christ mentioned one, and only one, sin in the same sentence with cement shoes and the bay. [Literally, millstones and the sea.]


I completely agree with this statement:
bishops and other administrators could be forgiven for not recognising this solution; there's far less excuse for continuing to ignore it through the 80's and 90's

The problem HERE, then, is a conflict with religion and psychology. According to religion, you and God can solve any problem, and resist any temptation, aka "God never sends you more than you can handle. etc. etc." [This statement, by the way, is not in the bible, but that's not the point.] Thus, a sincerely repentant priest CAN stop molesting young boys with God's help. If he can't, it's his fault. Maybe next time.

Psychology, on the other hand, suggests that a child molester, no matter what his emotional or spiritual conditions, should simply never be left alone with kids.

What boggles the mind, of course, is how the hell the CATHOLIC CHURCH FOR GOD's SAKE, the protectors and guardians of all knowledge, didn't figure this out, say, 50 years ago.

Where was I going with this? Dunno. Maybe that abusing a child in any capacity was denounced by Christ in graphic, violent terms, and the fact that repeat offenders remained priests until the 90's is simply unacceptable.

Re: All Christians sin and forgive

[snowy-owlet.livejournal.com]

Preach it, sister!

Re: All Christians sin and forgive

[lhn.livejournal.com]

Psychology, on the other hand, suggests that a child molester, no matter what his emotional or spiritual conditions, should simply never be left alone with kids.

I'd agree with that just on general safety principles. On the other hand, I recently read that the recidivism rates for child molesters are actually somewhat lower than those for other crimes. (Not, certainly, enough lower that you'd want to take the risk. But everything else I'd read implied that it was way higher than, say, murder or robbery or other violent crimes, where we let people go more or less unsupervised after they've served their sentences.)

Granted, that's partly a question of how many are caught, but that's true of all the crime stats. (Certainly these days, people who've been caught once for sexual offenses are often tracked more closely than those for other crimes.)

[thefirethorn.livejournal.com]

Monshu agrees that Keating hit the nail on the head when he called the American bishops "la Cosa Nostra" (though he suggested calling it la Cosa Nostra clericale for clarity).

As an Oklahoman, and thus partially responsible for Keating, I'm shamed to ask, WHAT does la Cosa Nostra mean, anyway?

[muckefuck.livejournal.com]

Literally, "our (nostra) thing (cosa)" in Italian. It's a name for the Mafia.